- Linux Computers
- DVDs & Films
- Writings & Reports
- Arab Spring
- Libyan Revolution
- Libyans spilled blood for us!
- NATO killed 60 civilians in Libya
- ANSWER Libya Forum
- Battle to Liberate Tripoli
- Behind the Green Curtain
- NATO's Game Plan in Libya
- How They Won
- Abdul Fattah Younis
- Abdul Rahman
- Amy gets it wrong
- CCDS on Libya
- Chris Hedges on Libya
- Current Events in Libya
- Doha summit
- Racism in Libya
- On Libya & Glenn Greenwald
- NATO's intervention in Libya
- Gilbert Achcar on Libya
- Tripoli's Long Night
- Green Sq Reality Check
- Qaddafi's Million Man March
- Lockerbie Bomber Lie
- Kucinich & Qaddafi Regime
- NATO over Tripoli
- Libya & Syria: Dueling Rallies
- AI on Libya again
- Situation in Libya
- ANSWER answers me
- Libya in the news today
- Tripoli Burn Notice
- Libya on PressTV
- Throwing babies out
- Libyans killed by NATO
- Libyans, Palestinians & Israelis
- Africa Rising
- The Occupy Movement
- The Year in Review
- Occupy Oakland on Jan. 28
- How Occupy LA got itself evicted
- Why Villaraigosa kicked us out
- Demonization of Mario
- Was DHS behind the eviction
- OccupyLA Eviction
- Did 1st Amend protect OLA
- Bandits of America
- OccupyLA Day 48
- Hard Block Cafe
- 10K March with OccupyLA
- OccupyLA - Day 8
- OccupyLA - Day 7
- OccupyLA - Day 6
- OccupyLA - Day 5
- OccupyLA - Day 4
- OccupyLA – Day 3
- OccupyLA - Day 2
- OccupyLA - Day 1
- Occupy Los Angeles Starts
- Arab Spring Comes to LA
- OccupyLA on 10/1
- G20 Road Trip
- The Decisive Decade
- Anonymous & WikiLeaks
- US Wars
- Why the US didn't find WMD
- US troops pose with bodies
- Haditha & USMC
- Louis Proyect reviews VAH
- Announcing Premiere of VAH
- Vietnam War was holocaust
- What Is A Holocaust?
- Winter Soldier Southwest
- Ex-Marine Corps Serial Killer
- Another Day In Iraq
- The Liberation of Viet Nam
- Hearing Cpl. Ryan
- Ahmadinejad @ Columbia
- Executing Afghan Kids
- How War Started
- Agent Orange in Iraq
- US Killing in Yemen
- Happy New Years Iraq!
- US Politics
- Too Big To Fail?
- Liberty Bell Destroyed!
- Xmas Carol for Obama
- Obama on Vietnam
- Stop This Oil Leak
- Karl Marx on TV!
- BP Dome won't work
- Rick Santorum
- Bill Clinton Rips GOP
- Laid off Census Worker
- Severe Conservative?
- This Week: Sen. John McCain
- Newspaper Death Spiral
- Sarah Palin
- Sotomayor Experience
- "Everyone is Disapearing"
- Racism in the US
- Internet Freedom & Open Source
- My Best Tweets
- Android make Google Money?
- Country Codes for the Internet?
- End of the Internet
- Free Press would this Illegal!
- Free Press Agenda?
- Google Verizon Deal
- Keith Olbermann's Deception
- Obama versus Google
- What are these RMT Alerts?
- Verizon's Rebate Challenge
- Victory is Sweet
- Why I like Google
- Would Net Neutrality Stop WikiLeaks?
- e- G8 plans for Internet
- Al Franken on Network Neutrality
- Cyber War Report
- FCC Internet Rules
- Google Must Be Evil
- Google\Verizon Net Neutrality
- Internet Engineers
- Julian Assange on Threat
- Let a 100 Websites Blossom
- Mountain comes to Mohammad
- Net Neutrality's Trojan Horse
- Obama's Internet Coup d'état
- Victory on Internet Censorship
- Daily Kos Diaries
- Stubborn Things
- WL Central Writings
Tripoli Green Square Reality Check
After a five day battle it is beginning to look like the rebels have taken the oil town of Brega but it has been at a high cost, maybe 13 dead and more than 300 wounded.
As the battle for control of Libya rages on the battlefields another important battle has taken place in the realm of the media for the claim of legitimacy based on popular support among the Libyan people.
In this realm, the centerpiece of Qaddafi's claims to popular support has been a series of mass rallies in Tripoli on June 17th, July 1st and July 8th. In each of these occasions the pro-Qaddafi folks have stated that 1.7 million Libyans rallied for Qaddafi in Tripoli's Green Square. For example:
Worker's World Party reported:
rallies in Libya against the bombing, which reportedly had 1.7 million people in attendance.
The Party for Socialism and Liberation wrote:
July 1 as many as a million rallied in Tripoli against NATO bombing. This is in a nation of only 6 million people.
NATO WILL BE DEFEATED IN LIBYA! by Gerald A. Perreira
Instead, on July 1st, over a million Libyans, around one third of the Libyan population, were in Green Square and the surrounding streets, to hear Muammar Qaddafi speak and to rally against NATO.
Chinese media put the number at 1.7 million and Intifada – Voice of Palestine website called it ‘the largest demonstration ever in world history’. The crowd chanted over and over again ‘We want Qaddafi’ while unveiling a green flag 6 kilometers long.
TRIPOLI. Friday of July 1, 2011 like many other Fridays has seen huge rallies in Tripoli’s Green Square.
It’s very hard to get an accurate number of the mass of people that have attended these rallies. Estimates have placed the size of the July 1st rally in Green Square at one million people. [China reports 1.7 million.]
Note that the [China reports] link links to the Perreira piece above not to any Chinese source. That source is not linked or defined by anybody and remains a mystery. That's how this information war is played by the pro-Qaddafi people. Assertions without sources.
Now others reporting on these pro-Qaddafi protests have estimated much lower numbers for these crowds, in the range of 10,000 to 30,000. It has also been said that the majority of those in attendance had some relation to Qaddafi security forces, approximately 10% of the Libya population has such an association. It has also been reported that many of the Qaddafi supporters were not from Tripoli at all but have been bused in from out-of-town, that they were paid to show up, or threatened if they failed to show up.
So there have been a lot of questions about the accuracy of these reports.
I got to wondering if it was even possible for 1.7 million people "the world's largest demonstration" to fit in Tripoli's Green Square and as it turns out it's not.
The world's biggest city square is Imam Reza Shrine in Mashhad, Iran and is almost 600,000 sq. meters in size. The second biggest is the more famous Tiananmen Square in Beijing, China and measures more than 440,000 square meters. Tripoli's Green Square isn't even on the list.
In fact I couldn't find a size for Tripoli's Green Square listed anywhere. I had to get a map and do the math myself. Thank Google:
Green Square is roughly 646 meters long by 238 meters wide. Taking into account all the adjacent streets and odd bits like the spear of land on the right and the rectangle on the bottom I come up with an estimated size for the Green Square area of just 205,065 sq. meters.
205 thousand square meters would appear to be an impossible fit for 1.7 million people
So how many people can you fit into 205,000 sq. meters?
This authoritative study calls anything over 2 people per sq. meter "jammed," this report's densest category.
One study about a large rally in 2008 makes the following observation:
Crowd density estimates stem from the fact that people usually occupy around a quarter of a square meter in a very crowded space. This translates to around four (4) persons in a square meter. Lower crowd density means a larger space between each person. We should note that crowd density is usually not uniform, except in very crowded areas, and will taper off from the central hub of activity in the mobilization.
While How to Estimate Crowd Density says:
"Loose crowds" are those in which attendees stand an arm's length from one another, and give each person about 10 square feet of space. "Tight crowds" stand less than an arm's length from one another and provide about 4.5 square feet for each attendee, while a "mob crowd" is one that has no space between attendees and gives each only 2.5 square feet.
Read more: How to Estimate Crowd Density | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_7824574_estimate-crowd-density.html#ixzz1SWcDKvui
So using the most dense "mob crowd" of 2.5 sq. ft or .23 sq. m. per person it would appear that Tripoli's Green Square could support a rally of at most 891 thousands people. The estimates of as many as 1.7 million Qaddafi supporters in Green Square defy the possible.
Besides which, Green Square just hasn't been that crowded for these rallies. Look at the closeup below. This is Green Square on July 1, 2011. Notice the spacing between the people and few seem to be out in the street beyond the square. Notice also the camera crane that some on the DocuLink filmmaker list have speculated about. Makes it look rather more like a movie set than a rally doesn't it? Look at all the extras standing around waiting for the cue. And there's that French flag again! Since France has been first among the NATO countries in attacking Qaddafi, a French flag is the last thing you'd expect to see at a Qaddafi rally. What's it doing there?
Compare Tripoli's Green Square to the Washington Mall
In the United States, the national mall in Washington, DC is renown for it massive political rallies. In 1963 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke to a rally there that was generally considered to be about a quarter million people. This is what a quarter million people looks like. What you don't see is all the people on the sides under the trees and crowds all the way down to Washington Monument at the other end.
Here we superimposed Tripoli's Green Square over the Washington Mall, being careful to maintain the scale exactly. The red dot marks the location of the Washington Monument. If the Washington Mall gets crowded with 250,000 people how could Green Square hold 6 or 7 times as many people?
It simply didn't happen and all those that say that Qaddafi held a rally in Tripoli with over a million supporters in Green Square are selling an elaborate lie in the hopes of saving a tyrant and a mass murderer from his certain fate.
Here is a recap of my other DKos dairies on the Internet, North Africa and Anonymous:
Behind the Green Curtain: Libya Today
Gilbert Achcar on the Libyan situation and the Left
NATO slammed for Libya civilian deaths NOT!
Qaddafi's Million Man March
NATO's Game Plan in Libya
February 21st - Tripoli's Long Night
Did Qaddafi Bomb Peaceful Protesters?
Tripoli Burn Notice
Libyans, Palestinians & Israelis
'Brother' Qaddafi Indicted plus Libya & Syria: Dueling Rally Photofinishs
An Open Letter to ANSWER
ANSWER answers me
No Libyans allowed at ANSWER Libya Forum
Are they throwing babies out of incubators yet?
Continuing Discussion with a Gaddafi Supporter
Boston Globe oped supports Gaddafi with fraudulent journalism
Doha summit supports Libyan rebels
Current Events in Libya
Who's running Egypt?
Amonpour Plays Softball with Gaddafi
Californians Support North African Revolts
Google Supports Revolts | Anonymous does too!
Secret U.S. Intelligence Source on Middle East Revealed !
Are "mutinous officers" are being executed in Egypt now?
Algeria's 19 year long State of Emergency to end soon, President says
Senior Egyptian Army Officers Ordered Massacre!
Tales of Tyrants: Ben Ali, Mubarak & Suleiman
The Mubarak Screw Up & the Suleiman Danger
BREAKING: Mubarak is Defiant
The Google Search for Wael Ghonim
Tunisia's Revolution Continues
Google Goes Rebel, Supports Egyptian Protest
Tunisian Anonymous activists take on Egyptian cause
Protesters roar back with "Day of Departure" for Mubarak
Act Now to Stop Mubarak's Thugs From Killing More! w Petition
Act Now to Stop Mubarak's Thugs From Killing More!
They Should Have Helped That Street Vendor
Million Egyptian Protest Planned as Resistance Continues
Huffington Post Disses the Jasmine Revolution Redux
No Internet? No Problem! Anonymous Faxes Egypt
Egypt is on Fire!
North African Revolution Continues
Egypt Protests Continue, Tunisia Wants Ben Ali Back
BREAKING: Protesters Plan Massive "Day of Wrath" in Egypt Today
Tunisians Thank Anonymous as North Africa Explodes
Huffington Post Disses the Jasmine Revolution
Tunisia: A Single Tweet Can Start A Prairie Fire!
Anonymous plans Op Swift Assist in Tunisia
Arrested Pirate Party Member Becomes Tunisian Minister
Is Libya Next? Anonymous Debates New Operation
Tunis: This Photo was Taken 66 Minutes Ago
The WikiLeaks Revolution: Anonymous Strikes Tunisia
EMERGENCY: DKos Must Act Now to Protect Tunisian Bloggers!